vt.Buzz ~ a political blog

Political notes from Free Press staff writers Terri Hallenbeck, Sam Hemingway and Nancy Remsen

11.17.2008

Who's in for the bailout?

Here's my question to you on this fine morning: Who among you thinks the federal government should bail out the auto industry. And why?

Were you sitting there at the breakfast table this morning thinking of the ways the government should spend your money and deciding that bailing out an industry that purposefully squeezed every last dollar out of the Big Honking SUV while blindly refusing to plan for the future would be a really good thing?

Or could you think of a thousand other places you'd rather that money goes?

Meanwhile, Sen. Bernie Sanders said he will introduce legislation today to stop the release of a $350-billion second round of the bailout.

Sanders said he has serious concerns about how the Bush administration and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson are spending the bailout money that was already released. He also said it was unacceptable that the oversight provisions in the bill were ignored.

“We should use the second $350 billion tranche to create millions of good paying jobs rebuilding our crumbling bridges, roads, culverts, schools and water systems. We can also create millions of jobs by moving away from foreign oil and fossil fuels and into energy efficiency and sustainable energies,” Sanders said.

- Terri Hallenbeck

posted by vt.Buzz | 10:27 AM |

Comments:

If we bail them out, what guarantee do we have that they will continue to employ American workers?

If we bail them out, will they agree to make a more sustainable product? Or will they continue to use a product that is heavily dependent on foreign sources of fuel?

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 11:46 AM, November 17, 2008

How about the auto industry, Bernie? Do you want billions spent without renegotiating fat-cat union contracts or replacing incompetent management? Tell us why Detroit auto workers need $73 per hour compared to Southern non-union workers at Toyota, Nisson, etc. that can "survive" on an average of $43 an hour! And oh yes, Bernie, while I'm at it, why do we need to incorporate welfare and social engineering into the lending industry? How about going back to lending money that are qualified to pay it back!

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 12:01 PM, November 17, 2008

I would prefer that, like the airlines before them, the automakers file Ch XI and submit to court oversight in the restructuring process. Once they have demonstrated due diligence in fixing what's broken in their superstructure then we would do well by our economy to consider a loan. Simply pumping money into a failed, bloated, and unworkable system (read: UAW intractability) would be reckless on a good day.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 12:04 PM, November 17, 2008

Yea, blame the workers. It's their fault.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 12:51 PM, November 17, 2008

The oil companies should bail out the auto companies. They've been colluding for decades and blowing hundreds of millions on lobbyists to preserve the status quo. That's why they're in this fix. Let Exxon bail out GM. They've been rippin' us off for years.

The Unions have been giving back since Reagan. Management created this problem. This is a gop-slime/management mess from top to bottom. Let management pay for it.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 12:51 PM, November 17, 2008

I know plenty of people in their 70s who were depending on investments directly or indirectly tied to the stock market. Those investments are now worth almost half of what they were a few years ago.

It’s all well and good to howl about not helping the Wall Street fat cats. Those people don’t need help though. They already have their protection. What the bailout was about was hopefully keeping things from getting worse.

There is very little chance that many of these people that saved all of their working lives will ever see their investments worth what they were. Hopefully things won’t get much worse for them and maybe there will be some recovery.

This problem has been coming for a very long time due to poor regulation of the securities market. Finger pointing will do nothing to fix these problems. The situation needs to be stabilized and then there has to be carefully thought out plans to correct the underlining situation and prevent future abuses leading to an even worse crash.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 1:00 PM, November 17, 2008

GM CEO Rick Wagoner take $9.3 million per year in salary and bonuses.

Ford's CEO Alan Mulally, makes $18.5 million per year.

Why do these guys get paid so much when their companies are failing??

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 1:04 PM, November 17, 2008

jw's latest crackpot economic theory re: "EXXON should pay for bailout of GM" is a perfect example of why you should never crack open the Richard's so early in the day.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 2:14 PM, November 17, 2008

GM CEO Rick Wagoner take $9.3 million per year in salary and bonuses.

Ford's CEO Alan Mulally, makes $18.5 million per year.

Why do these guys get paid so much when their companies are failing??

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 2:21 PM, November 17, 2008

I do not think it is the worker's fault. It is the ceo's fault the auto industry is failing in the US. Instead of building fuel efficient cars, Detroit has been forcing SUVs down our throats. Meanwhile, Japan, Korea, and Europe have been building fuel efficient cars and they are not struggling.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 2:33 PM, November 17, 2008

Europe is crushing the U.S. on implementing renewable energy as well.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 2:35 PM, November 17, 2008

Ya best listen to the Doc and lay off the bupkis, bubbakis.

Your lost weekends are turning into wasted life.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 2:52 PM, November 17, 2008

Any bailout of the auto industry is not going to save jobs, it will only postpone the inevitable. Let them file for chapter XI and maybe they can come up with a workable plan. Leahy, Sanders and Welch all support a bailout with OUR money. They are not trying to save the auto companies, they only want to save the union workers who fill their campaign coffers.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 3:14 PM, November 17, 2008

Leahy,Sanders and Welch will win re-election with our without the auto unions.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 3:35 PM, November 17, 2008

Giving Detroit may be throwing good money after bad.

But I agree with Obama that this is not a moment we can let them collapse or else we may ensure a 10-year depression for the Midwest.

Somehow, management must change and the unions must renegotiate. Maybe they should be forced into bankruptcy, and then the government can hold a $25 billion lottery in which the "winners" can only use their winnings to buy Detroit's cars.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 4:24 PM, November 17, 2008

nek:

You're always talking about the plight of the working person in Vermont. What do you think Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio whose people subsist on the auto industry and related parts and supplies industry will do without an estimated 3,000,000 jobs?

And what about the broader implications of that?

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 4:30 PM, November 17, 2008

Anonymous....

"nek:

You're always talking about the plight of the working person in Vermont. What do you think Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio whose people subsist on the auto industry and related parts and supplies industry will do without an estimated 3,000,000 jobs?.."

If the lunatic-fringe likes of nekkie boy possessed the capacity for rational thought, he wouldn't be the lunatic-fringe likes of nekkie boy and flush limbo would be telemarketing his toxic trash and livin' at home with his mother

Nekkie boy's a dimwitted, ditto-headed reactionary. A modern day no nothing like his boy, bubbakis.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 4:51 PM, November 17, 2008

Sanders should bailout - he's just a useless mouthpiece.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 5:05 PM, November 17, 2008

Anonymous said...

"Giving Detroit may be throwing good money after bad."

As opposed to giving money to Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater and continuing to blow 15 billion per month in Iraq.

Let's see, the schmuck ceo at GM doesn't see why he should resign or what would be gained by his resignation ain't givin' nothin' back.

The fools at Ford ain't givin' back, either.

The Fords can't run the Detroit Lions - who haven't won a Title since before Ford introduced the Edsel in a league that not only protects incompetent ownership/management, it rewards it with the top draft pick - any better than they run the original family business, but the entire State of Michigan and most of the Country gets to suffer so they can bail out those schmucks.

Oh, swell. Some Big Three lobbyist just said they need a bail out immediately even though they have the 25 billion we already gave them, but "they want to save that for a rainy day."

Unfortunately, if they file Chapter 11 and negate all their existing labor contracts, China will be only too happy to buy them.

That makes perfect sense. We stop just short of buying them out, let them file and have China nationalize GM for pennies on the dollar in the interest of the "Free Market".

Obama needs to be sworn in no later than yesterday. This Country can't afford any more of shrub's gop-slime incompetence.

Lose Paulson and get somebody in there who knows what they're doing. Pronto.

The Unions will give back. The Unions will renegotiate. The Unions always give back and renegotiate.

Let's see what management and ownership gives back for a change.

Paulson bails out the banks without requiring the banks to lend the money they were bailed out with.

Lose this clown.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 5:28 PM, November 17, 2008

still waiting for an answer:

GM CEO Rick Wagoner take $9.3 million per year in salary and bonuses.

Ford's CEO Alan Mulally, makes $18.5 million per year.

Why do these guys get paid so much when their companies are failing??

It's foolish to blame this on the working men and women who build the cars ... when the CEO's are making such huge sums to rule over failing companies.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 5:35 PM, November 17, 2008

filing for bankruptcy does not mean that people will automatically lose their jobs. it encourages efficient restructuring of the companies, and allows for wage contracts to be re-negotiated. look at the airlines... continental... united... they have successfully emerged from bankruptcy and are competitive firms again. throwing money at the auto industries will not fix their problems, forcing them to restructure will.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 5:58 PM, November 17, 2008

jw - "the unions always give back and negotiate". You mean like the air traffic controllers and the NEA? I get a little sick of hearing about the "poor workers" in UAW making their $73 an hour to screw in a particular light bulb. Let the auto imdustry file Chapter 11, reorganize, renegotiate with the UAW, and maybe THEN they can come begging! (Why does anyone need a UAW when non-union workers in the south can make $40-50 an hour and actually produce a GOOD product?)

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 6:05 PM, November 17, 2008

It is time to let the markets decide the fate of these companies. It is clear that the nation is in a recession and businesses are bound to suffer. We do not have the money to bailout these corporations as it is and we should just let it all play out naturally. Sure, we may experience big job cuts and bankruptcy, but bailing out these companies will only stall a worse situation later on.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 6:43 PM, November 17, 2008

Maybe someone can give me some help here - I'm trying to remember what Pat and Bernie did to bail out St. Johnsbury Trucking back in 1993 when the VERMONT company was about to go under. Oh yes, I forgot - it was just a local outfit, not someone that can really contribute the BIG bucks!

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 6:57 PM, November 17, 2008

Anon has over 3,000,000 unemployed if the big 3 file chapter XI!! We are suppose to give (not lend) the auto mfgs money to make more cars that no one buys- sounds like good financial advice- something Coopy might recommend. We (taxpayers) are to invest in companies that are destined to fail because they cannot make a competitive priced vehicle. How many of you anons drive a US made car? There is your answer- you don't drive one because they are not worth the price.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 7:04 PM, November 17, 2008

The gov't actually made money on Regan's Chrysler bailout in the 1980's.

It seems that the right-wingers have drifted far, far from their roots.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:13 PM, November 17, 2008

Anonymous said...

"The gov't actually made money on Regan's Chrysler bailout in the 1980's."

Actually, the Chrysler Bailout was structured in 1979, passed by Congress in 12/79 and signed into law by Carter and implemented in January of 1980. Reagan didn't become President until over a year later.

Chrysler paid off the loans in 1983 and the US Taxpayers made a 350 million dollar profit.

Of course, 350 million bucks was real money in those days. That doesn't even get ya to suppertime in Iraq today and nobody even got killed or maimed.

Reagan had nothing to do with it. That's why it worked.

"It seems that the right-wingers have drifted far, far from their roots."

Nah, they gave us the Depression, numerous recessions and stock market crashes, the deficits, massive debt and this mess. They're right where they've always been.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 9:52 PM, November 17, 2008

NEK said...

"Anon has over 3,000,000 unemployed if the big 3 file chapter XI!!"

No, we should can the management and become partners with GM and Ford and make all loans subject to a series of conditions.

If those conditions are met, the terms of the loan are satisfied and the debt is paid in a timely manner, they get their company back. If they don't. They don't.

It's like in Goodfellas when the restaurant owner goes to Paulie for a loan. That makes Paulie his partner. If business is slow, too bad. F@#k You. Pay me.

Nobody is in favor of this bailout. Nobody does chemo and radiation because they want to. They do it because they don't have any other options.

We bail them out because we have to but we do it right. Like Chrysler.

No more brain-dead, bush-league, gop-slime incompetence.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 10:08 PM, November 17, 2008

bubba said...

"Maybe someone can give me some help here - "

You're way past the help stage, bubbakis, but I'll be happy to school your sorry brain-dead butt all the same.

What you're sayin' is that you've got bupkis, so you're gonna try to pull a straw man outta your hat and change the subject in the hopes that nobody notices.

Nice try. No sale.

Watchin' you try to construct and make an argument and do magic tricks is like watchin' an old arthritic elephant try to do card tricks on a bad night.

Ya got bupkis, bubbakis. Ya always do.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 10:20 PM, November 17, 2008

A couple thoughts:

1. Coop continues to uncover conspiracies EXXON and GM. Will it never end? Provide all the hard facts you have Coop or stop the rumor mongering.

2. There is a bailout system that exists today with contingencies for independent oversight, forces basic action to be taken to solve the root problems and is usually led by experts that can actually get something done. It is called Chapter 11. GM needs to exercise their right to do it. The Dems won't like it politically because the unions will need to be part of the solution which is not part of D's agenda.

3. The Gov't should say no because the Auto industry only wants to get cash to cover the problems they have. Without being forced, they won't take real action to fix their problems.

4. Bernie is partly right. The next tranche should be stopped because Congress hasn't done what it said it would do. They vowed there would be oversight when they approved the bill. To date there is none. They have failed again.

5. Bernie is also wrong. Why would any sane person think the gov't that brought you failed Social Security, failed health care, that meddled in home financing until it caused the collapse of Fannie and Fredie and on and on ever be trusted to spend our tax dollars wisely on government works programs. Leave it to the private sector. Cut spending, downsize government, stop the non-stop meddling in things you don't understand. Let the system fix itself.

Let the Chapter 11 system work..it actually does if not meddled with.

No bail outs.

Captain America

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:08 AM, November 18, 2008

A little late for that Captain America. It was OK to bail out Wall St (You have investments, I presume) but don't help the last of the disappearing manufacturing sectorin this country which supplies working people with jobs. More of the same.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:18 AM, November 18, 2008

AIG which is eating bail-out money like there's no tomorrow is an INTERNATIONAL corporation, just by the way.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:20 AM, November 18, 2008

You cannot compare Chrysler of 1979 with the big 3 today. Chrysler reorganized and Iacocca took zero salary and renegotiated with the unions so they could market a cost effective auto.
Today's auto mfgrs cannot make a cost effective auto with the existing UAW contract which they say is non-negotiable. Plus Congress wants to micro-manager the industry and not let them make cars that sell- only $40k "green" cars that will take years to sell.
Can you imagine Bernie & Barney Franks running the auto industry!!!
Chapter XI does not put them out of business - they can operate and keep most of their employees while they reorganize. The ONLY way to go.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:37 AM, November 18, 2008

"Most of their employees while they reorganize." What's an acceptable number of jobs losses for auto workers? You complain about 50 or less in the Northeast Kingdom.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:50 AM, November 18, 2008

Guess it just depends on whose ox is gored right?

And by the way, doubt very much your parents named you NEK, so don't knock anonymous blogs.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:52 AM, November 18, 2008

Be honest. It's really about union-busting for you guys. Didn't hear anyone complaining here about the post-bailout retreats for executives of Wall St. corporations on the public dime or the outrageous salaries and benefits they get to keep, again on our dime.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:56 AM, November 18, 2008

You must think it is okay for working Vermonters making $25-$35 per hour to chip in and bail out the union workers who average $73.50 per hour. If the union was to renegotiate they may be able to save all the jobs. Which is better- paying 300,000 workers $75/hr or 550,000 workers $40/hr?? You might get more votes with the latter.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 8:57 AM, November 18, 2008

And after the Chrysler bailout many years ago, they are still overpaying their union workers and making terrible cars and trucks that don't sell! AIG and the banks, although undeserving, have been bailed out because the US needs insurance and loans! No one needs to buy a Chevrolet.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 9:00 AM, November 18, 2008

What do you think Wall Street executives make? No gripes about bailing them out. Is there something wrong with non-Ivy League people making a decent wage?

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 9:03 AM, November 18, 2008

"No one needs to buy a Chevrolet." Wrong there, unless you want the majority of people in this country working for $7.50 an hour. Whose going to support you investors then?

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 9:06 AM, November 18, 2008

I know what Wall streeters make and think it is obscene but I doubt if there are 300,000 wall streeters making $x millions/yr. It is not hard to figure why manufacturing jobs are going overseas but you apparently think we should pay everyone a decent wage ($75/hr) and force people to buy American cars!
BTW- do you drive a US car? I doubt it.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 9:16 AM, November 18, 2008

Auto worker make millions a year? And no, it isn't hard to figure out why manufacturing jobs are going overseas and providing us with inferior and unsafe products overall (look at what we get from China for example. It's the greed of the investment class because they get a better return on investment when they don't have to pay people decent wages.

You people still don't get it: trickle down doesn't work. You have to have more people with money to spend to make the economy work. The more money is concentrated at the top the more likely the country finds itself with the problems we have now.

Those who won't learn from experience will continue to make the sames mistakes.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 9:27 AM, November 18, 2008

"It was OK to bail out Wall St (You have investments, I presume)"

Wrong. It was no better bailing out Wall Street for the same reasons. It was done without ever addressing the root cause of the problem. There was a lot of discussion about who caused the problem but nothing substantial about how to fix it. To make it worse all the big talk of oversight from the Congress was never followed through with.

Manufacturing can be very successful in the US but only when you all realize it is a global economy we are competing in and we take the actions we need to make our businesses competitive with the China's, Korea's and India's of the world...and before you head down that path it doesn't mean working for $30/month. It means getting serious about being productive and doing what it takes. The UAW is nowhere near to being on board with easing up on the maze of counter-productive work rules they have negotiated.

Captain America

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 9:56 AM, November 18, 2008

Get over it. There are too many employees no matter how the problem is solved short of the Gov't subsidizing the business each and every year.

You can't have capacity to make 17 million cars when demand is under `14 million. Some have to go.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 10:00 AM, November 18, 2008

It isn't simply a question of get over it. It has real ramifications for a significant sector of manufacturing, economically for several states and thus for the country as well. You all complain about living on the dole. You will not leave these people much choice as there are not other jobs available for them. We are already too much of a service oriented (read low paying jobs) economy. To make it more so makes no sense.

The stubbornness and wrong-headedness of auto industry executives is legend, but that doesn't mean we should sacrifice more of our manufacturing to other countries. If the government can lean on them to make rational changes, we might save that sector, something which would benefit the national economy.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 10:32 AM, November 18, 2008

Union busting again, Captain America?

Poor decision-making on the part of executives, not unions caused the problems in the auto industry as they consistently ignored demand and produced what they chose to. These decisions were made by management, not unions. As someone else pointed out above, the UAW would certainly negotiate to save jobs for their members. It's not their recalcitrance that has been the problem.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 10:45 AM, November 18, 2008

Yeah.... there is nothing I like to do better especially when they work against the best interest of their rank and file....cripes.

Take a look around almost every failed industry we have is unionized. Take the Steel industry. Oops, that's right, they don't exist in the US anymore. Great job by the unions there. The UAW is next. Until they want to be part of the solution, they will be a major part of the reason they will fail.

The unions seem a whole lot more interested in Card Check voting so they can intimidate workers into joining than they are in actually working for them to really preserve jobs.

Capt. America

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 12:07 PM, November 18, 2008

To the 10:45 poster - you mean negotiate like the teachers union does or the traffic controllers did?

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 2:36 PM, November 18, 2008

do not bail out car companies - that is just wrong! They need to be completely restructured!!!!!!!

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 7:01 PM, November 18, 2008

Well, looks like we got us a regular auntie amerikan, ignorant, anonymous trash trifecta.

It's stunning how American Auto Workers get so damned competent the second they take a pay cut, give up UAW protection and go to work for Toyota, VW or BMW, but it's all their fault GM and Ford design them nothin' but lousy, gas-guzzlers for them to build for 35 years.

This is a management mess but Waggoner at GM and Mulally at Ford want a Government bail-out with no strings attached along with still more UAW concessions and give backs, yet they see no reason why they should resign.

These clowns are clueless enough to be in the Bush Administration.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 8:09 PM, November 18, 2008

The reason workers become "competent" when they go to Toyota, etc. is because THEY HAVE TO, because in the non-union world, incompetent people CAN be fired, unlike the NEA, UAW, etc.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 6:39 AM, November 19, 2008

"But on Tuesday, United Auto Workers (UAW) President Ron Gettelfinger testified to the U.S. Senate Committee on Banking that his organization rejects the idea that rank-and-file workers should make concessions on wages or retiree benefits under the bailout plan."
It appears the unions are willing to gamble on the livelihood of their 300,000 rank and file members.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 7:58 AM, November 19, 2008

Even if they agreed to cut pay and benefits a third, they would still be averaging more than comparable workers at Honda, Toyota, etc! They sound like the last Japanese soldiers holed up in the caves of Iwo Jima after the war! No surrender, no compromise, fight to the death!

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 10:28 AM, November 19, 2008

"GM plant closing like a death knell in Dayton" --CNN today.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 12:23 PM, November 19, 2008

"It's stunning how American Auto Workers get so damned competent the second they take a pay cut, give up UAW protection and go to work for Toyota, VW or BMW, but it's all their fault GM and Ford design them nothin' but lousy, gas-guzzlers for them to build for 35 years. "

Wrong again, Coop. The UAW is incompetent as a concerned employee advocate even after wage concessions. The only rival they have is the arrogence of the Big 3 management teams for not listening to their customers... If it was so intuitively obvious that the design decisions where flawed why didn't the UAW braintrust raise the issue on the behalf of the rank and file. Why? Because they don't care as long as they are collecting dues and supporting their own fat cat lifestyles. Greed lives on both sides of the street Coopy.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 2:03 PM, November 19, 2008

Like management is going to listen to unions in regard to production policies! What Disneyland do live in?

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 2:24 PM, November 19, 2008

We're not taking about spa money for AIG executives here, we talking about people's livelihoods. We know where the greed truly lies.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 2:28 PM, November 19, 2008

"..Wrong again, Coop. The UAW is incompetent as a concerned employee advocate even after wage concessions. The only rival they have is the arrogence of the Big 3 management teams for not listening to their customers... If it was so intuitively obvious that the design decisions where flawed why didn't the UAW braintrust raise the issue on the behalf of the rank and file. Why? Because they don't care as long as they are collecting dues and supporting their own fat cat lifestyles. Greed lives on both sides of the street Coopy."

Gee, too bad the facts don't reside on your side, little factually-challenged fella.

And just when did management award veto power to the UAW over the design of the product they build, little nameless-nitwit fella?

Feel free to cite the date and contract provision.

Go on. Have at it. Don't be shy.

Nice try.

Labor just builds the designs management gives 'em, you still can't spell what you can't substantiate and your ignorant anonymous ass remains as factose-intolerant as ever, little fella.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 2:34 PM, November 19, 2008

Anonymous said...

"GM plant closing like a death knell in Dayton" --CNN today.

Another ACT 250 casualty of Vermont's anti-business agenda, no doubt.

You just know that VPIRG, CLF and Shumlin and Symington's fingers are all over that corpse.

Vermont's so anti-business, we're killing GM Plants in Dayton, Ohio.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 2:50 PM, November 19, 2008

"Like management is going to listen to unions in regard to production policies! What Disneyland do live in?"

That absolves them from doing their job watching out for their membership? I apparently live in the same Disneyland that you do. The UAW is equally to balm e for dropping the ball

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 3:03 PM, November 19, 2008

Yes Coop your 2:50 posting is exactly right. Grow up.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 3:05 PM, November 19, 2008

So, what you're sayin', little fella, is that ya haven't got a case or a clue and ya don't know what the hell you're talkin' about.

Gee, thanks for clearin' that up.

I'm not gonna pretend ya know what day it is and which end is up, sport. You're gonna have to make that case yourself.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 3:26 PM, November 19, 2008

Anonymous said...
"Like management is going to listen to unions in regard to production policies! What Disneyland do live in?"

"That absolves them from doing their job watching out for their membership? I apparently live in the same Disneyland that you do. The UAW is equally to balm e for dropping the ball"

If only a "balm e" could cure what ails the factose-intolerant, lunatic-fringe likes of you, little fella.

Just which part of the UAW has no power over the moronic decisions of management is givin' you trouble, little fella.

That's like blamin' the circulation department because ya don't like Gannett's editorial judgement.

You have no case no clue and no reason. Stop wastin' my dog's oxygen. Go find yourself a tar pit and fall in it.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 3:42 PM, November 19, 2008

Yes, that's the solution! Let GM or Ford or Chrysler engineers consult with some bulb-changer in the UAW to build better cars! Gee, jw, I hope if you happen to have an operation that your surgeon first consults with a union member of the maintenance department for advice on which organ to remove! Not that it would make a difference.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 5:42 PM, November 19, 2008

jwcoop said: "So, what you're sayin', little fella, is that ya haven't got a case or a clue and ya don't know what the hell you're talkin' about."

No that's not what I was saying. I know you are a little slow so let me explain that I was suggesting you were again clueless and ya don't know what the hell you're talkin' about.

Does that help Coopy?

If not just give me a call.

Mom

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 5:56 PM, November 19, 2008

Bubba evidently can't read.

Someone else other than Coop suggested that the union was responsible because they didn't force the management to build smaller cars. Blame them for it.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 6:34 PM, November 19, 2008

Anonymous..

jwcoop said: "So, what you're sayin', little fella, is that ya haven't got a case or a clue and ya don't know what the hell you're talkin' about.""

"No that's not what I was saying."

Actually, it is, little nameless nitwit fella.

Sarcasm. Look it up. Learn something.

I didn't ask ya what ya thought you were sayin' or what you were tryin' to say, schmuck. I facetiously asked you what you were saying. It's what's known as a rhetorical question. Hence, the intentional absence of a question mark.

Again, look it up.

I already know you've got nothin' to say, little fella. Ya never do. It's just a question of how frequently you're gonna misspell that nothin' and how amusingly ridiculous your attempt at argument will be.

You have no case, no clue and no reason for continuing to waste my dog's oxygen.

In short, you're managed to prove that you can't spell what ya can't prove and that you're still dumb, you're still scum and your ignorant anonymous ass has still got bupkis.

Thanks for clearin' that up, little fella.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 7:42 PM, November 19, 2008

bubba..

"Yes, that's the solution!...."

So, bubbakis, now that you've conceded the fact that labor has no say in the design of the vehicles management gives them to build, undercut your foundational premise that it's labor's fault that big three product doesn't sell, blown your bogus case all to hell and, once again, handed me your head on a silver platter in the process, do you have anything else you'd like to add, little fella?

Pleasure doin' business with ya.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 7:51 PM, November 19, 2008

bubba..

"..They sound like the last Japanese soldiers holed up in the caves of Iwo Jima after the war! No surrender, no compromise, fight to the death!"

No that would be the dimwitted, demented and delusional likes of doogie who still thinks it's a good idea to privatize Social Security, bubbakis.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 8:00 PM, November 19, 2008

Actually, bush, his gop-slime rubber-stamps and the Pentagon tried to in 2003 until a handful of gops and Senate Dems stopped 'em from fleecing the public on a tanker scam.

Feel free to check.

Then, of course, there's now.

Fortunately, now that competence and integrity have been restored to the White House and there's a legitimate, competent Dem-controlled Congress in place, that's just not gonna happen.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 11:50 PM, November 19, 2008

"integrity have been restored to the White House..."

Right. Let's see Tony Resko, Rev Wright, Bill Ayers, ACORN, countless pre-election agreements with labor unions, a VP who stopped a previous campaign because of a plagiarism charge. Let's not talk about the background of BO's proposal for Attorney General. To say something positive, he is well qualified at presidential pardons.

Integrity indeed, as long as all you read is the Daily KOS.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 7:06 AM, November 20, 2008

Funny. Don't see any of the above listed as appointments in the coming administration.

what about the backgrounds and activities of the current administration. Don't see you calling for their removal?

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 7:55 AM, November 20, 2008

And not positive if you're the ignorant, anonymous, factose-intolerant, lunatic-fringe likes of bubbakis who can't read at all.

In other words, it's a new day and bubbakis has still got bupkis.

Thanks for clearin' that up, little fella.

And what cabinet post was Rezko named to, bubbakis?

ACORN? All you've done is name the same names and make the same bogus charges that you and the gop-slime injustice department couldn't make stick the first time.

Let's see who shrub pardons on his way out the door now that gonzo and the dickster have been indicted in Texas.

Let's see how Abramoff, scooter, and stevens fair in the pardon department over the next two months bubbakis.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 8:03 AM, November 20, 2008

Pardons brought up by the Obama-toadie jw? I would think with Eric Holder being nominated for AG, jw would not want to stir up more reminders of Holder working with Bill for Mark Rich's pardon. You remember Rich, right? Fugitive financier holed up in Switzerland so he couldn't be deported. Wife often "seen" by herself at the White House when Hillary "out of town". Vast and secret sums of money "donated" to Bill's porno Library. Yeah, tell us about Bush's pardons!

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 10:31 AM, November 20, 2008

Wait and see.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 11:31 AM, November 20, 2008

Well, there seems to be some similarity between the Vermont legislature leadership and that of the Harry Reid-Nancy Pelosi traveling huckster show! When Shumlin/Symington couldn't do anything with their own party they just started blaming Douglas. Now Reid-Pelosi can't get their overwhelming majorities to bail out the big three auto makers, so they've decided "it's REALLY Bush's problem"!

Jeezus, two more years of this before voters wake up and return the Republicans to power!!!

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 11:31 AM, November 20, 2008

Speaking of the big three, let's let the Chinese buy them up, Bubba. They're interested.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 11:41 AM, November 20, 2008

That would almost be amusing watching the Chinese deal with recalcitrant union bosses!

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 11:58 AM, November 20, 2008

This comment has been removed by the author.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 1:59 PM, November 20, 2008

bubba..

"That would almost be amusing watching the Chinese deal with recalcitrant union bosses!"

In other words, bubbakis, you want a right wing totalitarian gop-slime state to deal with the UAW, NEA, VSEA and all unions and workers rights groups like the Chinese deal with their dissident groups and citizens to go along with Chinese worker, product and environmental safety standards.

Gee, now who coulda seen that coming.

Thanks for clearin' that up, bubbakis.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 3:47 PM, November 20, 2008

I think you mean "LEFT" wing totalitarian government, jw. Besides it didn't matter to your hero Bill Clinton to deal with them, particularly when he got $800,000 from their rep Norman Hsu! Remember?

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 4:33 PM, November 20, 2008

bubba...

I think you mean "LEFT" wing totalitarian government, jw. Besides it didn't matter to your hero Bill Clinton to deal with them, particularly when he got $800,000 from their rep Norman Hsu! Remember?

Yeah, and I remember the gops takin' even more, too.

Nice try.

Nah, you heard me right the first time, bubbakis.

You want a reactionary, right-wing, gop-slime totalitarian
government to deal with the UAW, NEA, VSEA and all other worker's/citizen's rights groups to deal with dissidents in DC like Beijing and Berlin, bubbakis.

Totalitarianism is totalitarianism and bustin' heads is bustin' heads.

The Nazis didn't handle it any better than the Chinese do.

I don't recall Clinton borrowin' a billion or so to fund an unnecessary War in Iraq, bubbakis, but that pretty well sums up the quality of your case against Clinton as opposed to Bush.

Even by your suspect numbers, it's 800 Grand against 800 Billion.

It's Monica versus Katrina. It's Kosovo versus Iraq.

It's competence versus criminally-clueless corruption.

When shrub took over from Clinton on 1/20/01, there was a budget surplus, the DOW was at 10587 and there were a couple of really tall buildings dominating the Lower Manhattan skyline that are no longer there.

Where's the surplus today, bubbakis? Where's the DOW today, bubbakis?

The DOW would have to be at 14000 or better after eight years of brain-dead, bushleague incompetence and gop-slime corruption just to break even, bubbakis.

That's not gonna happen by 1/20/09 any more than those buildings are gonna be back, thrivin' and full of businesses, workers and tourists.

Not in this bushleague economy, bubbakis. Not a prayer.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 4:57 PM, November 20, 2008

bubba...

"Well, there seems to be some similarity between the Vermont legislature leadership and that of the Harry Reid-Nancy Pelosi traveling huckster show! When Shumlin/Symington couldn't do anything with their own party they just started blaming Douglas."

Well, he did override a couple pieces of legislation by narrow margins with the help of the gop-slime obstructionists in the House, bubbakis, so, unlike you, they've got a legitimate point."

"..Now Reid-Pelosi can't get their overwhelming majorities to bail out the big three auto makers, so they've decided "it's REALLY Bush's problem"!"

No, like Iraq and Afghanistan, it's shrub's mess, but it's our problem, bubbakis.

As with the Depression and the Reagan/Bush Deficits and Recessions, gops trashed the joint. We just stuck with the repair bill. Again.

Well, given the fact that there was a cluelessly-corrupt gop-slime Congress in effect for the last six years of Clinton's time in office and the first six of shrub's reign of error, they've got a legitimate point.

I know reality gives ya a tummy ache, bubbakis. What with you bein' factose-intolerant and all, but they don't have those overwhelming majorities until the new Congress convenes in January and a legitimate, competent President is sworn in so, once again, the only you've succeeded in doin' here is provin' that ya haven't got a case or a clue and ya don't know what the hell you're talkin' about.

I never doubted that for a second, bubbakis. You and your coalition of the clueless comrades made that sale a year ago.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 5:40 PM, November 20, 2008

Remind me again, jw - what was the unemployment rate, growth rate, and DOW JONES average just prior to the dim takeover in 2006? Since then they have had majorities in both houses - and as I post this the DOW-JONES is well Under 8,000, the dims are fighting among each other over house chairmanships, bailout for auto makers, Joe Lieberman, etc. Sure looks like a Republican landslide in 2010! Hey, look at it this way - at last until tomorrow, you're still allowed on this blog!

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 6:02 PM, November 20, 2008

bubba said...

"Remind me again, jw - what was the unemployment rate, growth rate, and DOW JONES average just prior to the dim takeover in 2006?"

And just what legislation have the Dems been able to enact in the less than two years that they've had the majority that Senate gops haven't been able to filibuster and/or shrub hasn't been able to veto, bubbakis?

C'mon, don't be shy, little fella. Step right up, name it and claim it, clueless.

Gee, bupkis from bubbakis.

What are the odds.

You and your fellow factose-intolerant, coalition of the clueless comrades can spew this slop a zillion times, bubbakis. It's still gonna be pure unadulterated horsebrit hume and you're still gonna have bupkis for an answer.

You've got no case, no clue and no reason, bubbakis. Ya never do.

You clowns can try to get me tossed by pulling the old 500 anonymous complaints from 5 IP addresses song and dance because ya got bupkis and ya don't like it when somebody calls ya on your brain-dead bs and smacks ya back.

That's the oldest trick in the world. As long as they check the IP addresses and call it both ways, so be it.

I'll see ya in hell, bubbakis. I'll be the one armed with the facts and you clowns will have bupkis.

Always a pleasure.

# Posted by:

JWCoop10 | 7:51 PM, November 20, 2008

The Dems have spent the last two years doing nothing. They can't agree among themselves so it is difficult for them to pass any bills. Four spent most of the two years running for President- Leahy spent 2 years typing subpoenas- the rest couldn't decide what to do with Iraq and spent 2 days a week on financing the war and/or troop withdrawal. The other day they spent arguing about banning domestic drilling,the(un)Fairness Doctrine, and how they will allow the pro-union card-check voting to appease Daily Kos with their left agenda.
It isn't what they did- it is what they didn't do because of their limited abilities.

# Posted by:

Anonymous | 11:49 AM, November 21, 2008