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Political notes from Free Press staff writers Terri Hallenbeck, Sam Hemingway and Nancy Remsen


9.14.2007

 

There's no going back

This should have run Monday night or Tuesday -- but life got in the way.

At Monday's meeting of the House Ways and Means Committee on the property tax privacy question, several people suggested that the best solution would be to go back to sending prebate checks. That was Tax Commissioner Tom Pelham's recommendation. Milton Town Clerk and Treasurer John Cushing thought that might be the way to go, too.

If you pay your property taxes based on your household income, don't expect a check next year. Here's why. Pelham noted that by the time the Legislature meets in January, the tax booklet will be printed for 2008 will be printed. It would be too late to switch gears, even if the change were the first thing lawmakers did on the first day they met and they worked as fast as they do at the end of the session. (By the way, that kind of speed doesn't happen in January. )

There's a political reason, too, which Rep. Mary Peterson, D-Williston, hinted at without mentioning the word "election." If there were a way to revert back to the prebate checks, she noted that taxpayers would also revert to getting much bigger property tax bills. "That would be a tough nut to swallow," Peterson said. Tough for the taxpayers who would no doubt take out their frustrations on the politicians who gave them that present just a few months before asking for support on election day. That won't happen.

So my guess is that if anything is done to create more privacy for the property tax adjustment information, it will happen in the town office. It's going to pit those who don't want anyone to have even a hint about their household income against those who believe they and the rest of the public have a right to know everything about local tax revenues and expenditures. What one person sees as privacy, another might see as secrecy.

There also were some strange political winds blowing Monday in that committee room. Rep. Rick Hube, R-South Londonderry, has been one of the Republicans beating a drum about the privacy problem, with some emphasis on Democrats failure to address the problem. Hube and other House Republicans hoped to create a firestorm of political opposition -- but their flame never caught. Two other Republicans on the committee declared their support for the switch from prebate check to reduced property tax bill and Committee Vice Chairman Bud Otterman, R-Topsham, repeatedly said one couldn't definitely arrive at household income using the tax adjustment figure and even if you could get close, what did you have? Not a taxpayer's income, which is the really sensitive information, he said.

Democrats, meanwhile, were getting mixed messages. Democratic Secretary of State Deb Markowitz, who said she did get calls from folks concerned about the public availability of their income-related tax adjustment, went public saying there was a problem with the change and suggested town clerks and treasurers redact the information on tax bills provided to anyone other than the taxpayer. Democratic House Speaker Gaye Symington agreed with Markowitz that "there is a basis for concluding that the property tax adjustment information is private and should not be disclosed." After six hours of testimony, most of the Democrats on the committee declared themselves undecided -- read that unsure politically -- about what to do.

Politically and practically blocked from going back to the old system, they found they faced a mine field of hidden implications if they committed to some new privacy protections in town offices. Don't look for any quick answers here.

-- Nancy Remsen

Comments:
Some Dems don't want to change the prebate system because what they really want is to switch education funding from an income-sensitized property tax system to a straight education income tax. If such a bill comes out of the Legislature, Douglas will surely veto it, and last summer's override votes show that he has the votes in the House to sustain the veto.

Once Douglas finally does leave office, he'll likely be succeeded by a Democrat, and that's when the Dems will make their big push for an education income tax - assuming there's anyone left in Vermont to pay what will certainly be the highest state income tax rates in the nation.
 
What a waste of taxpayer dollars! Pay all these legislators per diem expenses when in the end they sent people away to figure this out for themselves. The Chairman could've sent the same message out earlier without calling a farce of a meeting. For those looking for a revert to the old system - it ain't going to happen. The netted tax bill scheme was none other than Madam Speaker's idea when she was a member of the Ways and Means Committee back in 2001. She finally got what she wanted and will never let go of it as long as she's in charge. By the way - hot dogs were the special of the day in the State House cafeteria that day. How appropriate!
 
It seems with all towns using computer software to run there reports and tax bills there could be two seprate documents:

1)A tax record that shows the appraised value of the gross property tax amount, this would be a public record.

2)A second tax document that goes to the taxpayer which shows the net property tax due,ie. the Gross tax less any adjustmenst including rebates. This would not be a public record.

Am I missing something or is this a fairly simple solution to the problem ???
 
^^^^^^^^^
Don't mess up a perfectly good bitch session with a simple solution!!
 
Is there ANYTHING that the liberals can't screw up, with the exception of demogoging the voters into electing them? If any state deserved it's wretched state of affairs more than Vermont, I can't imagine what universe it's in! Even the Soviet Union finally learned that there's no free lunch for the masses, only for the commisars.
 
You are absolutely right -- Jim Douglas and his political hacks (Gibbs, Lunderville), and Rick Hube will continue to press this because they want this political going into the next election.

Even if there were a simple solution, they would not support if it does not help the GOP next November.

In the end, it's all about politics.
 
The Republicans are politically invested in this failing.

They will torpedo any solution for Vermonters and try ot smear the Democrats with it.
 
Sounds like the left personified by the Vt. delegation cheer leading for our enemies in Iraq and smearing our heros like Gen. Petraeus, doesn't it? Those three boobs are nothing more than puppets for moveon.org and their ilk.
 
I love that the Republicans bitch about taxes, and cheer for the $3 billion-dollar-a-week boondoggle in Iraq.

They don't want to spend any money to hire teachers, but they'll give billions away to the war profiteers.
 
A pure education income tax will never fly as there is no way to ensnare out of state second home owners.

The democrats already have an income based education tax. 60% of all Vermonters use the income sensitivity system and 60% of Vermonter's aren't paying the highest state taxes in the country.

The privacy concerns are hogwash. This amounts to republicans not wanting people to know they are getting an income sensitive tax break so they can bitch about how high their taxes are.

Next time you hear somebody complaining about their property taxes ask them how much they got for their prebate. It will shut them up quick.
 
The GOP, both House and Governor, are making this an issue for one reason - POLITICS!

Governor Douglas talks about affordability in terms of taxes because he only raises "fees" and those are not taxes.

Every year he has been in office he has raised significant fees totaling huge dollars on VERMONTERS!!!!

He wouldn't touch a gas tax increase that 40% would have been paid by out of staters instead pushing Senator Mazza to raise DMV fees by about $10 million - almost entirely paid by Vermonters.

As long as he doesn't raise "taxes" and only raises "fees" he satisfies that neo-con in Wash DC named Grover Nuquist.
 
The Governor has no authority to raise fees. Only the legislature can do that - which they hapily do!
 
Property tax alone is unfair. Pure income tax alone is also unfair a) because a lot of wealthy people in Vermont don't work for a living, b) because they own fabulously expensive property in Vermont but have no income, and c) it would generate no taxes from second home owners who generate their income in other states.

We need a "total wealth" tax that captures the wealth of big-income earners and also the property-rich, income-poor people. People should live in inherited mansions and pay no taxes just because they don't work.

The only problem with my suggested approach is that there are some Vermont farmers who've inherited large tracts of land from their ancestors, and a total wealth tax might encourage them to sell their farm or forest land for development to pay the tax.

Any solutions?
 
Income or wealth - both are too easy to hide and too difficult to tax, which is why we still have a property tax.
 
Who says that this is a partisan issue? Democrats and Republicans both voted overwhelmingly for Act 185. The Democrats and Republicans who developed the system continue to defend it as brothers in arms.

Sure, Republicans were the ones who raised the privacy alarm, but they have been joined by progresives and Democrats alike (including Markowitz).

The solution is simple - send us our checks back again.
 
Bud Otterman doesn't know what he's talking about. I read a story in the Rutland Herald about a CPA who testified that he was able to calculate the income of his clients very accurately.
 
Hube for Congress!
 
There wouldn't be so many complaints about the property tax if Vermont's public schools delivered better value for money - with student performance assessed by rigorous tests and teachers held accountable for the performance of their students. Of course the NEA - one of the biggest supporters of the Democratic party in terms of both money and volunteers - would never allow this to happen.
 
Joel Cook is my hero.
 
Amen to that -- we pay about the highest amount per student in the country, but we do not get the best educated students in the country. I think that the VT NEA is part of why we pay way too much for what we get.
 
Take the NEA out of Vermont and welcome to West Virginia, which is almost the case anyway.
 
Really? So let's check the test scores. If our scores aren't much better than WV's, then we should do away with the NEA, right?

I am not aware of any eveidence that the unionization of teachers has improved the quality of education in Vermont.

What I know it has done for sure is put my property taxes through the roof.
 
Impeach the NEA
 
Yea, blame the hard working teachers. It's all their fault.
 
What if people were responsible for educating their children?
Is there a law mandating public education?
 
The NEA has done for education what the UAW has done for the American auto industry.
 
I love it when people bitch about teachers and how much money they make.

They are the same people who think it's a great idea to spend $3 billion per week in the boondoggle in Iraq.

They are the people that could have used a little more book-learnin'.
 
Act 185 was the biggest hoax ever pulled off by the legislature. They knew about all the problems (and I'm not just talking privacy either) with this law, but ignored them in their zeal to get it pushed through. This is just a scam to get more democrats elected in '08. The thinking is that property tax bills will appear to be lower, and the average Joe will thank the Democratically controlled legislature. Nice job.
 
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 
The R's bitch about Act 185 ... they "forget" that it became law under Governor Douglas.

If it was so bad, he should have vetoed it.

He's responsable for the laws that are passed. He needs to step up and take some of the blame.
 
We may have the worst managed educational system in the country...the reason it is also the most expensive.

To understand the root cause, look into the mirror, you keep accepting higher budgets and more taxes by approving them at the polls. There seem to be few initiatives targeted at manageing costs down wisely. School districts need to be consolidated, labor costs and teacher performance need to be addressed.

The solution needs to come out of Montpelier's hands. Politicians can't solve it because they are more concerned about being re-elected and the solutions aren't easy.

How much more can you afford to pay for a mediocre product?
 
This isn't an R vs. D issue. Both are responsible and I have seen Rs and Ds admit that there is a problem. It seems that the folks who created this mess (Rs and Ds) are reluctant to admit that they created a monster.

Lets just get the checks back in the hands of the people and move on.
 
The NEA would back Jack the Ripper as long as he was paying his dues. Remember the child predator at Lamoille the NEA backed until the town had to "pay" him off? They are the vilest union of them all because they do so much harm to our kids.
 
No one is blaming the teachers per se. But I am blaming the NEA for insisting on cranking up the spending no matter what the performance of the schools. That's simply not right, and you know it.

Someone wrote that the people who bitch about the teachers are "the same people who think it's a great idea to spend $3 billion per week in the boondoggle in Iraq."

Who are you to make this outrageous and stupid generalization that only Iraq war supprters would criticize our education system in Vermont? That's an idiotic statement. You're wrong. I think the war in Iraq was and is a stupid idea and a huge waste of resources. I also think that the way we fund education in Vermont needs substantial overhaul, because we aren't getting what we pay for. And I think many people agree with me.
 
Hear, hear.
 
Act 185 should be repealed - immediately!
 
The quality of education in Vermont is embarrassing - parents are left with the choice of private school vs moving out of the state. The Teachers union should be embarrassed that this is what they have created. Let get on with consolidating these school districts and get the teachers union out of the way!!!!!!!!!
 
The schools here in southern Vermont would leave most people flabbergasted. Close Bellows Falls
Union High School - it is a failed school!
 
Wow - vitriol unlimited!

I wonder if you had to sign your name, whether you would say the same things in the same way.

Vt's education system is not mismanaged - however, I agree it is costly. Education is a people business - people teaching people.

I grew up in VT - attending k-12 and graduating from UVM. My daughter has grown up in VT, attending k-12 and graduating college with a 4.0. Our school system has served my family well.

How many of you complaining have taken an active part in your kids education?

How many of you complaining attend School Board meetings and take an active part in developing school budgets?

How many of you complaining offer ideas and collaboration to try and address these rising costs?

Unfortunately there is a push in this state for local control and we continue to provide "incentives" to mantain small schools and/or small class sizes.

Teachers are the backbone for educating our kids.

Blaming the NEA doesn't solve anything - and the vitriolic comments also do not solve anything.
 
Tell me how one can fight the NEA and their destructive policies when most of the democrat politicians in Vermont are on their payroll? And when we go to town meeting (if we can get the time off) there are all the union teachers sitting together just daring anyone to ruffle their little empire! Private schools or home schooling are the only answers in a state dominated by paid-off politicians.
 
Wow Bubba, you really do live in a fantasy world.

Which Democratic politicians are on the NEA payroll?

Please tell us. This'll be interesting.

An "empire" of teachers?? What planet do you live on?

Vermont's public schools are wonderful. Anyone involved with their kid's education in a Vermont public school knows how good we have it here.
 
Bubba said, "Private schools or home schooling are the only answers in a state dominated by paid-off politicians."

Yeah, Bubba, makes sense - they have no controls by the voters, no public oversight, no tests to meet, pick and choose which kids they accept into their programs, no requirements on special ed or unruly kids - they just do what they want.

If public schools had the same rules, tests and requirements that private schools do, public schools would be a lot cheaper!

Bubba, you can't have it both ways!

By the way, there are currently about 6000 kids in private or religious schools not receiving any state money - if they rec'd a voucher of $7500 (about 3/4 of the statewide average per pupil cost), it would require an additional $45 million.
 
Bubba may not be the brightest bulb in the closet, but he is correct in the sense the the NEA gives very generously to Democratic candidates. Its all in the campaign finance reports.
 
You know it really does sound like Sect of Admin Mike Smith or maybe it's Jason Gibbs!

By the way, can you provide any info that shows NEA checks going directly to State Reps or State Senators?

I couldn't find any on the campaign fiannce web sites.
 
I've reviewed the campaign finance reports as well. The NEA isn't giving to local legilators or senators.

To say otherwise is a lie.
 
Bubba is the man! Keep it up. It hurts hearing the truth.
 
Its all on the campaign finance reports. They have PACs that distribute the money in amounts below the reporting threshold, so if you look up your local rep, you won't see the contributions. But... go look up the PAC and you see the disbursements.
 
I've reviewed the campaign finance reports as well. The NEA isn't giving to local legilators or senators.

To say otherwise is a lie.


Either you are incompentent, or you're Joel Cook (i.e. a liar).

I'll spell it out for you, step by step:

1. Go to www.vermont-elections.org
2. Click on "campaign finance"
3. Search for "NEA"
4. Notice that there are pages upon pages of results.

Here is one example from the last election cycle:

http://headlines2.sec.state.vt.us/isysquery/4647d39d-4060-4fe3-8e7b-491c863d87d9/3/doc/vtnea102506.TIF

But in case you can't figure out how to download the file, here is just a sampling of local reps and senators who received money from the NEA:

1. Don Collins (Chair of Senate Ed. Committee)

2. Sara Kittell

3. Tom Buchanan

4. John Moran

5. James Fitzgerald (the rep who was busted for cheating the social security administration)

6. Peter Peltz

7. Hilde Ojibway

8. Bud Meyers

9. Mary Peterson

10. Ira Trombley

11. Kathy Pellett

12. Anne Mook

13. Jim McCullough

14. Michele Kupersmith

15. Kathy Keenan

16. Bill Carris

17. Virginia McCormack

18. Bob Hartwell

19. Gail Faller


Who's the liar now?
 
Just how much do you think Jim Condos and his pals got from NEA PACS to push for the state's new babysitter service and teacher job-creation fund (you know, pre-K school, where the first book Junior reads will not be Spot and Jane, but "Why Mommy is a Democrat".)
 
I just searched the website - and I have found no money to Jim Condos from the NEA, Joel Cook, or the PreK groups --

So Jason, go bark up another tree!
 
I don't think Bubba is Jason Gibbs. More likely he is that nutcase from True North Radio.

But the fact remains - Joel Crook is the source of all our education funding woes in this state.
 
Didn't Governor Jim Douglas hold a big media signing event on the PreK legislation? Yup, he did - up in the NEK!

And wasn't the PreK summer committee chaired by ultra conservative GOP Rep Duncan Kilmartin? Yup, it was and received his full support!
 
Yeah, Paul Beaudry - True North radio - is just like Bill O'Reilly. He doesn't really care about the truth if it doesn't fit what he wants to say!

At least Bill O'reilly will sometimes invite the people he wants to trash on to his program. Beaudry only wants those who agree with his ultra conservative diatribes like Rop Roper - Vt GOP Director - who has never had his facts right!
 
"More likely he is that nutcase from True North Radio. "

You've got to be talking about that absolute nut job that Johnson 86'es once in a while.

There is no privacy problem. You can't back calculate with any certainty.

Is would be the same as if I looked up your mortgage and lien holder in the townhall and then tried to figure out how much you made based on some preset debt to asset ratio. It is just a shot in the dark.
 
Joel Cook does have a killer tan, regardless of what you think of him.
 
Stop blaming the NEA. They can't do anything that is not in contracts agreed to by your local school board. It is not a "teacher's contract" it is contract between the teachers and the Board of Education. The Board of Education in our district rolls over year after year on important issues and signs when they feel they've won a single minor point. We need our boards to negotiate and sign good agreements. Don't blame the NEA for out negotiating your local schol board.
 
OK - so if its all about contracts that are negotiated at the local level, by teachers themselves, what do the teachers need the NEA for?

Just disband the whole organization, their PACs, political contributions, and permanent seat next to Don Collins and our fair Representative from Calais.

No more union dues - just more money in the pockets of well-deserving teachers.

Right?
 
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 
Jim Douglas is beholden to his donors as well.

Hell... the Fecteaus gave him about $4000 last election cycle and have already given him $1000 for this coming election. Of course, he also gave them a sweet deal by accepting their mold and water damaged office trailers which the state then had to rehab - and then, the Fecteaus gave him a "sweet deal" to purchase the same.

Impeach Douglas!!!
 
Impeach Shumlin!!!
 
DUMP GOVERNOR DOESLESS IN 2008!

Make the schmuck have to work a real job for once in his life. Maybe then he'll realize how little he's done to foster job growth in Vermont. In fact, he might realize how detrimental his ongoing Chicken Little strategy has been.
 
Impeach Shumlin!
 
Look - nobody needs to be impeached. Let's get back to the issue - Act 185. It should be repealed. Simple.
 
I am just one parent that has had to deal with teachers, a school board and the public education system. You should not wonder if my
dissappointment in the system and its unionized teachers is because
I don't get involved. The more involved you are in your kids education in Vermont; the more angry you are!
 
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 
impeach bubba
aka "Vermonter" from Freyneland
 
Get RID of the teachers union! I am a parent - not a politician.
 
Why are the Republicans getting all the credit for raising this issue? The Progressives were right out in front on this one and picking up on an issue that the Democrats screwed up.
 
Get rid of the parents, not the teacher's union!
 
Thanks for your usual helpful thoughts Joel.
 
The Progressives like Martha Abbott
love the unions so good luck!
 
"DUMP GOVERNOR DOESLESS IN 2008!

Make the schmuck have to work a real job for once in his life."

Oh, you mean, like Bernie -- who's been on the public dole a lot longer than Douglas?
 
Has Bernie EVER had a real job in his entire life? (Outside of working up a sweat in a welfare line or hiding from the draft board)
 
How about taking away Jimmy Doesless's taxpayer provided health care until he starts working with the legislature to get all Vermonters covered! He's making close to $150,000 a year (one of the nation's top paid governors), so purchasing his own private insurance shouldn't be a big deal for him. Hell, he could just phone up one of insurance company contributors and cut a pumpkin with them.

DUMP DOESLESS IN 2008!!!
 
Bernie also makes $150,000 a year. Plus, under Congressional election laws, he can keep unspent campaign funds from year to year. The, when he leaves the Senate, he gets to keep whatever's left over. By then, it will be millions. Let's see if when he retires from the Senate, he turns it all over to charities, or instead keeps it.


By comparison, the amount Douglas will have earned in his political career will be paltry.
 
Apples to oranges, but nice try.
 
Bernie and Douglas have been on the public dole their whole life
but it could be worse - Matt Dunne could be Governor!
 
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 
Not apples to oranges. A perfectly valid comparison, given the constant drumbeat on this blog that Douglas is living on the public dole. Bernie's been doing it a lot longer, earns the same amount the Governot does, and will emerge from his U.S. Rep. and Senate careers as a very, very wealthy man.
 
Bernie would support health care coverage for all in a heartbeat, as opposed to Douglas, who only wants to veto universal coverage so his insurance and pharmy groups keep the campaign cash coming. The poster (I think) wasn't referring to salaries initially, but rather support for health care coverage for all. On that point, the two are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Douglas really should have to live without taxpayer funded health care, so he realizes what a bitch it is. This stuff about choosing you own doctor doesn't wash if you don't have your own doctor to begin with!
 
So.........

Shumlin for Governor
Dunne for Lt. Governor
 
"Bernie would support health care coverage for all in a heartbeat"

So who pays for it?
 
Let me see if I get this straight. It's okay for Bernie to be on the public dole for life, because he supports universal socialized health care. It's NOT okay for Douglas to earn $150,000, because he doesn't support universal free health care?
 
Don't worry about Bernie - he's due to get another payoff from moveon.org for voting against the Senate condemnation of it's ad smearing General Petraeus, just like he did back in 2004 for his threatening CBS when they refused this vile organization's hate ad during the Superbowl. Sleazy little punks like Bernie will do anything for the bucks.
 
Peter Shumlin for Governor
and
Matt Dunne for Lt. Gov

or
Matt Dunne for Governor!
 
Go Matt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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